[blogfocus tuesday] leaner, meaner and brutally honest
Blogfocus continues here …
2] Leaving aside his wonky politics, Norman Geras is essential reading and I enjoy how he stands firm against popular trends and does his own thing. Actually, I really enjoy this. Long ago I threatened to do to him what he’s done to so many others – a Norminterview – but sadly I haven’t yet made good although the folder on him is now bulging with material awaiting collation. Norm’s highpoints were the spaceman outfit, the musical poll and the sheer common sense with which he answers his detractors. His low point will be his absence from the blogosphere during his imminent globetrotting – perhaps he’ll post from Oz. Here he defends the dead tree media:
As with most bloggers, a lot of the press that I read, I read online. But there's still something different and better, for getting a quick sense of what a particular newspaper contains, about actually having the physical copy in your hands. You can scan the pages more quickly; you can glance at the body of those articles with headlines that interest you, without having to click forward and click back over and again.
3] What does one say about Tim Worstall? I was mightily peeved when I did a number on him which no one read and then Norm did one which everyone read but no matter. Tim has it all worked out in Portugal, even down to pub blogging. He’s a restless spirit, always onwards and upwards and what he doesn’t know about economics isn’t worth knowing. I imagine he’d be great company but would you want to live with such forthright opinions 24/7? His loyal following [including yours truly] appreciates his lean, mean blogging style and he doesn’t so much fisk as tear apart – hence the expression ‘to do a Worstall on someone’. Here’s an example about a Class A dork who wants everything just so:
Another week, another Class A-list disaster. Not content with being put on the A-list, Ali Miraj has demanded he be given a safe seat in Parliament, and no, none of your pesky ‘target seats’ will do. He wants an ‘access all areas’ pass and he wants it now! And why does he have this feeling of entitlement ?
4] I don’t care what people say about him, Vox Day is an intellect beyond, with vehemently anti-feministi tendencies [no bad thing, sorry Ellee]. Where he finds some of his material is beyond me and I’ve rarely found a post I disagree with. He tears apart mercilessly, a la Worstall – always deserved and he likes nothing better than being attacked. Then wait for the flamethrower in return. Looking at the sheer volume of commenters he gets, he’s one of the best things true Christianity has going for it just now. This one is on the strange Muslim announcement about Christmas:
But the Muslim leaders said they honoured Christmas and that local authorities were playing into the hands of extremists who were able to blame Muslim communities for undermining Britain's Christian culture. I think the ideal solution would be for every person who favors banning all mention of Christmas to be informed that they will not be getting any time off in December until New Years Eve.
5] Bryan Appleyard does it his way. You can rant and rave – he’s unmoved. You can eulogize – he’s unmoved. His posts keep coming out at near-regular intervals and every post is different to its predecessor. I confess he’s the 2nd site I visit every morning just to get the brain back into operation after a night in the snorosphere and the provocation has me leaving a comment rather than getting ready for work which I should be doing. Damned nuisance. This one is about how blogs about bugs get huge traffic:
This site has just come to my attention. It consists of cartoons of various bugs with brief descriptions of what they do - like, for example, kill you. It is currently one of the big blogs of the world. It is beautifully done by an Australian student. But it is so odd, so strange, that it raises questions like, what do blogs do, what are they for? The answers 'anything you like' and 'everything' seem inadequate.
6] Hands up anyone who doesn’t like or respect Cllr Gavin Ayling? Hands up anyone who’s ever seen a legitimate fisking or sharp putdown? I still think Gavin is at the embryonic blogging stage [such as yours truly] and I wish he’d just throw that dud blogerror in blue and get on with constructing his new one but no doubt there are nostalgic reasons for its retention. Gavin’s style is now settling down and there’ve been some damned good posts recently. He doesn’t just stick to local politics [although these are always revealing] and this makes the blog more interesting. But one thing I love is his innocent turn of phrase [inter-course cleansing is one that sticks in the memory] and all his comments are straight from the heart. A most pleasant blog-visit every time. Here’s his take on the Sony launch:
Sony should consider whether, despite the production problems of global launches, it really ought to restrict sales in one location so as to build up market hype. I don't think it should be forced to sell its products simultaneously everywhere…I am delighted by this 'people-power' exerted by non-malicious market influence!
7] Hands up anyone who doesn’t like or respect Lady Ellee of Ely? She has to be one of the most broadly based bloggers and she works her blog well. Highlights are possibly the horse business and the Virgin spacetravel but she has strange ideas about women’s superiority. Apart from that, she’s eminently readable and she gets around others’ blogs and shows she’d read them too, which is more than you can say about many raid and comment merchants. But it’s in her comments you can see the character, e.g. about Richard Hammond today: I was taken to the South of France in [a Morgan] once; unfortunately, it broke down on the way home and we had to take the train from Paris where my handbag was stolen. But that's another story. Here she is peeved by the putdown over women refs:
I can’t see why Newell has difficulty with women being fair referees, they have to pass the same tests as men, I’m sure they work harder to prove themselves in this male domain. And plenty of women enjoy a game of footie too, though it doesn’t appeal to me, due to my lack of skills on the pitch.
8] Iain Dale needs no introduction – was there ever a blogger to split the blogosphere as he has? I’ve gone from being one of his most dismissive detractors to an admirer of his energy, his irrepressible style and his sheer consistency. And isn’t that the thing with the truly top bloggers – their consistency? His lists didn’t exist before him and now they do. Like them or hate them, he created them and they are the benchmark, no matter what any other johnny-come-lately might produce. Then there is Doughty. Here he addresses the Great Narcopayout:
Apparently they were forced to stop taking heroin or other drugs in jail and this breached their human rights, can you believe? The case has been funded through legal aid – i.e. by you, the taxpayer and will end up costing the best part of £4 million. David Davis has accused John Reid of a "massive failure of political nerve". So that's great, then. 192 drug addicted ex-cons with £10,000 in their back pockets. Nice to know that the taxpayer's hard earned pennies will be used to shoot up a bit of 'smack', isn't it? I suppose it cuts out the need to steal it.
9] One gets the impression that Tom Paine doesn’t suffer fools gladly; he writes a quality blog and that Moscow base adds an extra bit of spice. Entirely disagree with him about his take on Christianity – in fact I feel he and Colin Campbell were deluded – but who gives a damn when he writes so formidably. That’s what I personally search for in other blogs – great writing. Not much gets past Tom and he’s thrown down the challenge to me as well, which I’m in the process of taking up [first chapter down – the other two in the pipeline]. This is the sort of thing you need to sit back and take in:
I don't believe for a second that most Brits have any sympathy with the BNP's general political stance. However, if they campaign for an end to Muslim immigration and for dealing roughly with Muslim extremists, they can achieve huge success….Gordon Brown would do well to shut up about the recent acquittal of the BNP's leaders. His every word on the subject is just confirming the darkest suspicions of his "core" voters.
10] My latest find, if already many others’ daily read, the jury’s still out but a glance at Iznewmania traffic and his posts puts him, in my humble opinion, in the Cllr Ayling group. I’m going to tune in every day and see what develops – some of the revelations to date have been … well … quite revealing:
It is no surprise that cabbies think Islington is London’s worst borough for drivers . Answering them, Councillor Lucy Watt let the cat out of the bag . She said ,“ We get money from Transport for London to set up 20 MPH zones - this money cannot be used for anything else.”. Now we know .The real reason for more driver persecution is to get a new budget .Such things are like the smell of bisto to bureaucrats . They cannot resist.
11] I’m still coming to terms with Will and what he’s about. A nice looking blog and good posts to date, I’d like to know what you think. I completely disagree with his take on Israel/Palestine but agree on many other matters and when he waxes lyrical, it reveals a side I’d like all the strident, vehement bloggers to have to their blogging:
So when the weather changes abruptly and reminds us that we are growing older, even the small things arouse our strongest emotions. No matter where we are, we stare up at the same autumn moon. We watch the same springtime sun set in a warm sky. They are the constants that prove to us we are alive – and yet hint at our mortality.
12] Another first class blogger, the Englishman is sending out his missives from behind his barricade over there and he’s ready for the onslaught. Always sporting a wry smile, I imagine he doesn’t suffer fools gladly [reminds me a little of Tom] but his turn of phrase is measured, yet to the point:
2] Leaving aside his wonky politics, Norman Geras is essential reading and I enjoy how he stands firm against popular trends and does his own thing. Actually, I really enjoy this. Long ago I threatened to do to him what he’s done to so many others – a Norminterview – but sadly I haven’t yet made good although the folder on him is now bulging with material awaiting collation. Norm’s highpoints were the spaceman outfit, the musical poll and the sheer common sense with which he answers his detractors. His low point will be his absence from the blogosphere during his imminent globetrotting – perhaps he’ll post from Oz. Here he defends the dead tree media:
As with most bloggers, a lot of the press that I read, I read online. But there's still something different and better, for getting a quick sense of what a particular newspaper contains, about actually having the physical copy in your hands. You can scan the pages more quickly; you can glance at the body of those articles with headlines that interest you, without having to click forward and click back over and again.
3] What does one say about Tim Worstall? I was mightily peeved when I did a number on him which no one read and then Norm did one which everyone read but no matter. Tim has it all worked out in Portugal, even down to pub blogging. He’s a restless spirit, always onwards and upwards and what he doesn’t know about economics isn’t worth knowing. I imagine he’d be great company but would you want to live with such forthright opinions 24/7? His loyal following [including yours truly] appreciates his lean, mean blogging style and he doesn’t so much fisk as tear apart – hence the expression ‘to do a Worstall on someone’. Here’s an example about a Class A dork who wants everything just so:
Another week, another Class A-list disaster. Not content with being put on the A-list, Ali Miraj has demanded he be given a safe seat in Parliament, and no, none of your pesky ‘target seats’ will do. He wants an ‘access all areas’ pass and he wants it now! And why does he have this feeling of entitlement ?
4] I don’t care what people say about him, Vox Day is an intellect beyond, with vehemently anti-feministi tendencies [no bad thing, sorry Ellee]. Where he finds some of his material is beyond me and I’ve rarely found a post I disagree with. He tears apart mercilessly, a la Worstall – always deserved and he likes nothing better than being attacked. Then wait for the flamethrower in return. Looking at the sheer volume of commenters he gets, he’s one of the best things true Christianity has going for it just now. This one is on the strange Muslim announcement about Christmas:
But the Muslim leaders said they honoured Christmas and that local authorities were playing into the hands of extremists who were able to blame Muslim communities for undermining Britain's Christian culture. I think the ideal solution would be for every person who favors banning all mention of Christmas to be informed that they will not be getting any time off in December until New Years Eve.
5] Bryan Appleyard does it his way. You can rant and rave – he’s unmoved. You can eulogize – he’s unmoved. His posts keep coming out at near-regular intervals and every post is different to its predecessor. I confess he’s the 2nd site I visit every morning just to get the brain back into operation after a night in the snorosphere and the provocation has me leaving a comment rather than getting ready for work which I should be doing. Damned nuisance. This one is about how blogs about bugs get huge traffic:
This site has just come to my attention. It consists of cartoons of various bugs with brief descriptions of what they do - like, for example, kill you. It is currently one of the big blogs of the world. It is beautifully done by an Australian student. But it is so odd, so strange, that it raises questions like, what do blogs do, what are they for? The answers 'anything you like' and 'everything' seem inadequate.
6] Hands up anyone who doesn’t like or respect Cllr Gavin Ayling? Hands up anyone who’s ever seen a legitimate fisking or sharp putdown? I still think Gavin is at the embryonic blogging stage [such as yours truly] and I wish he’d just throw that dud blogerror in blue and get on with constructing his new one but no doubt there are nostalgic reasons for its retention. Gavin’s style is now settling down and there’ve been some damned good posts recently. He doesn’t just stick to local politics [although these are always revealing] and this makes the blog more interesting. But one thing I love is his innocent turn of phrase [inter-course cleansing is one that sticks in the memory] and all his comments are straight from the heart. A most pleasant blog-visit every time. Here’s his take on the Sony launch:
Sony should consider whether, despite the production problems of global launches, it really ought to restrict sales in one location so as to build up market hype. I don't think it should be forced to sell its products simultaneously everywhere…I am delighted by this 'people-power' exerted by non-malicious market influence!
7] Hands up anyone who doesn’t like or respect Lady Ellee of Ely? She has to be one of the most broadly based bloggers and she works her blog well. Highlights are possibly the horse business and the Virgin spacetravel but she has strange ideas about women’s superiority. Apart from that, she’s eminently readable and she gets around others’ blogs and shows she’d read them too, which is more than you can say about many raid and comment merchants. But it’s in her comments you can see the character, e.g. about Richard Hammond today: I was taken to the South of France in [a Morgan] once; unfortunately, it broke down on the way home and we had to take the train from Paris where my handbag was stolen. But that's another story. Here she is peeved by the putdown over women refs:
I can’t see why Newell has difficulty with women being fair referees, they have to pass the same tests as men, I’m sure they work harder to prove themselves in this male domain. And plenty of women enjoy a game of footie too, though it doesn’t appeal to me, due to my lack of skills on the pitch.
8] Iain Dale needs no introduction – was there ever a blogger to split the blogosphere as he has? I’ve gone from being one of his most dismissive detractors to an admirer of his energy, his irrepressible style and his sheer consistency. And isn’t that the thing with the truly top bloggers – their consistency? His lists didn’t exist before him and now they do. Like them or hate them, he created them and they are the benchmark, no matter what any other johnny-come-lately might produce. Then there is Doughty. Here he addresses the Great Narcopayout:
Apparently they were forced to stop taking heroin or other drugs in jail and this breached their human rights, can you believe? The case has been funded through legal aid – i.e. by you, the taxpayer and will end up costing the best part of £4 million. David Davis has accused John Reid of a "massive failure of political nerve". So that's great, then. 192 drug addicted ex-cons with £10,000 in their back pockets. Nice to know that the taxpayer's hard earned pennies will be used to shoot up a bit of 'smack', isn't it? I suppose it cuts out the need to steal it.
9] One gets the impression that Tom Paine doesn’t suffer fools gladly; he writes a quality blog and that Moscow base adds an extra bit of spice. Entirely disagree with him about his take on Christianity – in fact I feel he and Colin Campbell were deluded – but who gives a damn when he writes so formidably. That’s what I personally search for in other blogs – great writing. Not much gets past Tom and he’s thrown down the challenge to me as well, which I’m in the process of taking up [first chapter down – the other two in the pipeline]. This is the sort of thing you need to sit back and take in:
I don't believe for a second that most Brits have any sympathy with the BNP's general political stance. However, if they campaign for an end to Muslim immigration and for dealing roughly with Muslim extremists, they can achieve huge success….Gordon Brown would do well to shut up about the recent acquittal of the BNP's leaders. His every word on the subject is just confirming the darkest suspicions of his "core" voters.
10] My latest find, if already many others’ daily read, the jury’s still out but a glance at Iznewmania traffic and his posts puts him, in my humble opinion, in the Cllr Ayling group. I’m going to tune in every day and see what develops – some of the revelations to date have been … well … quite revealing:
It is no surprise that cabbies think Islington is London’s worst borough for drivers . Answering them, Councillor Lucy Watt let the cat out of the bag . She said ,“ We get money from Transport for London to set up 20 MPH zones - this money cannot be used for anything else.”. Now we know .The real reason for more driver persecution is to get a new budget .Such things are like the smell of bisto to bureaucrats . They cannot resist.
11] I’m still coming to terms with Will and what he’s about. A nice looking blog and good posts to date, I’d like to know what you think. I completely disagree with his take on Israel/Palestine but agree on many other matters and when he waxes lyrical, it reveals a side I’d like all the strident, vehement bloggers to have to their blogging:
So when the weather changes abruptly and reminds us that we are growing older, even the small things arouse our strongest emotions. No matter where we are, we stare up at the same autumn moon. We watch the same springtime sun set in a warm sky. They are the constants that prove to us we are alive – and yet hint at our mortality.
12] Another first class blogger, the Englishman is sending out his missives from behind his barricade over there and he’s ready for the onslaught. Always sporting a wry smile, I imagine he doesn’t suffer fools gladly [reminds me a little of Tom] but his turn of phrase is measured, yet to the point:
British shoppers will soon be able to buy cut-price alcohol and cigarettes from the Continent without leaving home, as a result of an extraordinary legal test case that threatens to blow a multi-billion pound hole in the Treasury's coffers. Excellent news - it means the one last remaining reason to visit Europe, to stock up the cellar, will have disappeared, and that lingering thought that I ought to go over there again can be firmly dismissed.
13] Everyone knows Paul Linford and for me, any blogger who writes the word ‘Christian’ in his ‘about’ is immediately worthy of consideration. A knockabout lobbyist, I’d love to have a beer with him [if his principles allowed him and if he could spare the time] and hear his tales of parliamentary derring-do. Iain Dale commented that he was like a fine wine and that’s the way it appears to me. Absolutely essential daily reading about the British scene. Here he writes about something he knows well:
What today's Labour Party really lacks is not so much a Foot as a Crosland, someone who can provide some sort of intellectual framework for a left-of-centre government in the early 21st century. David Miliband probably comes closest - but he is one for next time round.
14] Now this is the first time I’ve waded into a Blogfocus myself but it’s essential here to introduce this Prodicus classic. Prodicus began some months before I did and soon established himself fairly firmly as a hermit-like good-sort who doesn’t like being pushed around and manipulated. His pre-holiday, ‘Can we leave now?’ referring to the EU, followed up by his post-holiday, ‘Can we leave now?’ remains a classic. Often found roaming around rightist blogs he likes, I wish his time constraints would allow him to post a little more. He would answer, no doubt, that quality beats quantity. Actually, he probably wouldn’t. Which brings us to this exchange between yours truly and the eternal Prodicus:
james higham said...
This is an important post and should be sent to Tory HQ. Is there some way to achieve this, maybe via Tim Montgomerie?
Prodicus said...
Hm. Maybe I'll put it on Webcameron. Nah - it'll get lost among the dross. (Thinks.)
Prodicus said...
Well, all right, I've put it on Webcameron.
15] The original and still one of the best. Who would disagree with my contention that he, more than anyone else we know, put blogging on the map as an alternative to the MSM? A little too much of the literature for my liking, maybe Clive Davis could be a little more forthright on some issues but then again, it wouldn’t be him, would it? And thank goodness he’s fixed his fuzzy layout problems. I feel a little nervous writing about Clive because though blogging is egalitarian and he’d be the first to state that, nevertheless, I feel I’m commenting on my mentor in so doing. His comments on race are always to be heeded – this one is on Obama:
Maybe he'll turn out to be just another flavour of the month, yet there's something compelling about all the attention that Barack Obama has been attracting…There's no point trying to draw explicit parallels with Britain, because the historical background is so different. Still, I can't help noticing how much more relaxed Britons are, nowadays anyway, about the mixed-race issue.
16] A husband and wife team, Gates of Vienna remind me of Blackmore and Night a little, only much harder hitting. The header and intro set the tone for what their blog is about. Having been subject to the Dymphna scalpel already, I can vouch for the fact that only the highest quality posts ever see the light of day – thus the Pajamas Media, thus the high traffic, thus the nodding admiration from a readership on both sides of the pond and in other parts of the world as well. I shan’t dwell on the health cloud under which they operate as well. Consistent quality and sheer hard work got them where they are and I can only hope my guest post makes it one day to their blog. Here they indulge in one of their weaknesses:
…the future Baron had memorized whatever lyrics he could find; he sang and played Al Stewart’s songs for fun, almost from the first time he learned to use a guitar (he’d been a piano man up to that point). He also liked to sing some of Stewart’s work a cappella. “Joe the Georgian” was one of those — I can still picture him at the age of ten jumping on the rebounder and singing about Stalin.
17] One of the Scotsblog Battalion, Edinburgh Coy, Doctor Vee has one of the best laid out blogs in the sphere and his comments system is so pleasant to use – in fact his whole blog invites you back over and over. I find Doctor Vee at his best when he keeps harping on one issue, also over and over. In this case it is the eternal problem of the commuter train and the way he speaks from the heart shows he’s mastered one of the key elements to blogging:
But yesterday — the day after Standinaqueue Day — I did manage to find the time to stand in a queue. I feel a bit bad for not submitting a story to Standinaqueue, but what can you do if you haven’t stood in a queue on Standinaqueue Day? If only I could have moved that queue to a day before, but I think I already messed the queue around enough as it was.
Well, that’s the new Blogfocus – hope you like the format and as threatened above, if you escaped this time, you’ll be got at next Saturday. See you then I hope.
13] Everyone knows Paul Linford and for me, any blogger who writes the word ‘Christian’ in his ‘about’ is immediately worthy of consideration. A knockabout lobbyist, I’d love to have a beer with him [if his principles allowed him and if he could spare the time] and hear his tales of parliamentary derring-do. Iain Dale commented that he was like a fine wine and that’s the way it appears to me. Absolutely essential daily reading about the British scene. Here he writes about something he knows well:
What today's Labour Party really lacks is not so much a Foot as a Crosland, someone who can provide some sort of intellectual framework for a left-of-centre government in the early 21st century. David Miliband probably comes closest - but he is one for next time round.
14] Now this is the first time I’ve waded into a Blogfocus myself but it’s essential here to introduce this Prodicus classic. Prodicus began some months before I did and soon established himself fairly firmly as a hermit-like good-sort who doesn’t like being pushed around and manipulated. His pre-holiday, ‘Can we leave now?’ referring to the EU, followed up by his post-holiday, ‘Can we leave now?’ remains a classic. Often found roaming around rightist blogs he likes, I wish his time constraints would allow him to post a little more. He would answer, no doubt, that quality beats quantity. Actually, he probably wouldn’t. Which brings us to this exchange between yours truly and the eternal Prodicus:
james higham said...
This is an important post and should be sent to Tory HQ. Is there some way to achieve this, maybe via Tim Montgomerie?
Prodicus said...
Hm. Maybe I'll put it on Webcameron. Nah - it'll get lost among the dross. (Thinks.)
Prodicus said...
Well, all right, I've put it on Webcameron.
15] The original and still one of the best. Who would disagree with my contention that he, more than anyone else we know, put blogging on the map as an alternative to the MSM? A little too much of the literature for my liking, maybe Clive Davis could be a little more forthright on some issues but then again, it wouldn’t be him, would it? And thank goodness he’s fixed his fuzzy layout problems. I feel a little nervous writing about Clive because though blogging is egalitarian and he’d be the first to state that, nevertheless, I feel I’m commenting on my mentor in so doing. His comments on race are always to be heeded – this one is on Obama:
Maybe he'll turn out to be just another flavour of the month, yet there's something compelling about all the attention that Barack Obama has been attracting…There's no point trying to draw explicit parallels with Britain, because the historical background is so different. Still, I can't help noticing how much more relaxed Britons are, nowadays anyway, about the mixed-race issue.
16] A husband and wife team, Gates of Vienna remind me of Blackmore and Night a little, only much harder hitting. The header and intro set the tone for what their blog is about. Having been subject to the Dymphna scalpel already, I can vouch for the fact that only the highest quality posts ever see the light of day – thus the Pajamas Media, thus the high traffic, thus the nodding admiration from a readership on both sides of the pond and in other parts of the world as well. I shan’t dwell on the health cloud under which they operate as well. Consistent quality and sheer hard work got them where they are and I can only hope my guest post makes it one day to their blog. Here they indulge in one of their weaknesses:
…the future Baron had memorized whatever lyrics he could find; he sang and played Al Stewart’s songs for fun, almost from the first time he learned to use a guitar (he’d been a piano man up to that point). He also liked to sing some of Stewart’s work a cappella. “Joe the Georgian” was one of those — I can still picture him at the age of ten jumping on the rebounder and singing about Stalin.
17] One of the Scotsblog Battalion, Edinburgh Coy, Doctor Vee has one of the best laid out blogs in the sphere and his comments system is so pleasant to use – in fact his whole blog invites you back over and over. I find Doctor Vee at his best when he keeps harping on one issue, also over and over. In this case it is the eternal problem of the commuter train and the way he speaks from the heart shows he’s mastered one of the key elements to blogging:
But yesterday — the day after Standinaqueue Day — I did manage to find the time to stand in a queue. I feel a bit bad for not submitting a story to Standinaqueue, but what can you do if you haven’t stood in a queue on Standinaqueue Day? If only I could have moved that queue to a day before, but I think I already messed the queue around enough as it was.
Well, that’s the new Blogfocus – hope you like the format and as threatened above, if you escaped this time, you’ll be got at next Saturday. See you then I hope.
P.S. It was Clive Davis and his sons.


4 Comments:
I think your analysis is pretty spot on and very readable and I apprecriate the time and trouble it takes.
James,
Much better format. Really suggest that you start using the <blockquote&mt; tag though: it makes it much clearer when something is being quoted.
DK
Thanks, I've removed the sentimental "blog error"!
Ellee, Gavin and DK - thanks. DK -I'll try to do as you suggest but don't really know how to yet. I'll practise it a few times first perhaps.
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